On the nature of God

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nairobilay

Village Sponsor
#1
Im sure people smarter than I have thought this before and probably even book written about this. So if you have any insight on this please feel free to correct me.

I have the notion that God is omni-present and only exist from the present, to the past. The idea of his knowing the future is not possible since this will negate the need for free-will. I cannot pretend to understand God, but why create humanity if you already know how it is all going to end? Doesn't that mean you are already pre-destined to your actions and God is fully aware of your actions and outcomes?
Therefore I submit that he does not know how you will make use of your free will. He can make very predictions based on all information from the past and moves things to influence your choices but cannot know how you will choose.
 

Chiefkiumbe

Village Elder
#2
Im sure people smarter than I have thought this before and probably even book written about this. So if you have any insight on this please feel free to correct me.

I have the notion that God is omni-present and only exist from the present, to the past. The idea of his knowing the future is not possible since this will negate the need for free-will. I cannot pretend to understand God, but why create humanity if you already know how it is all going to end? Doesn't that mean you are already pre-destined to your actions and God is fully aware of your actions and outcomes?
Therefore I submit that he does not know how you will make use of your free will. He can make very predictions based on all information from the past and moves things to influence your choices but cannot know how you will choose.
Let work on this listing comin sunday.... priss
 

kijanamrefu

Village Elder
#4
Im sure people smarter than I have thought this before and probably even book written about this. So if you have any insight on this please feel free to correct me.

I have the notion that God is omni-present and only exist from the present, to the past. The idea of his knowing the future is not possible since this will negate the need for free-will. I cannot pretend to understand God, but why create humanity if you already know how it is all going to end? Doesn't that mean you are already pre-destined to your actions and God is fully aware of your actions and outcomes?
Therefore I submit that he does not know how you will make use of your free will. He can make very predictions based on all information from the past and moves things to influence your choices but cannot know how you will choose.
Free will and destiny/fate are mutually exclusive.
 

Ingia

Village Elder
#6
Im sure people smarter than I have thought this before and probably even book written about this. So if you have any insight on this please feel free to correct me.

I have the notion that God is omni-present and only exist from the present, to the past. The idea of his knowing the future is not possible since this will negate the need for free-will. I cannot pretend to understand God, but why create humanity if you already know how it is all going to end? Doesn't that mean you are already pre-destined to your actions and God is fully aware of your actions and outcomes?
Therefore I submit that he does not know how you will make use of your free will. He can make very predictions based on all information from the past and moves things to influence your choices but cannot know how you will choose.
Just kubali na uwache fence sitting. there is nothing like a god.
 

john_doe

Village Elder
#7
Us as humans are governed by time and physical laws therefore i think it is hard to understand God' s view of time, but is is what Jesus says concerning eternity :

" God knows no birth and no death, no dawn and no sunset, no beginning and no end. The angels, spiritual like Him, know but ' one day' a day which had its beginning from the moment they were created and which will know no end. The saints, from the moment when they were born in heaven, become possessors of this unchangeable Time of Heaven which knows no running on. It is fixed in its splendor in a diamond ignited by God, and in the epochs of the world which rotate around this Times's unchangeable fixity, like the planets around the sun : some now prevailling and some now disintergrating, while this unchangeable Time is always there, and always be. How long ? Forever. "

Concerning predestination Jesus says :
" All men without exception are predestined to grace, since I died for all.
Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward.
God knows from eternity those who are destined for glory before they are born into life—that is, "predestined". Pay attention, then, for here is the point for understanding
with justice the justice of God.
There are those who are predestined, certainly. And God knows them before time [even] exists for them. But they are not predestined because God, with evident injustice, gives them every means to become glorious, and by every means prevents any traps for them of the demon, of the world, and of the flesh. No. God gives them what He gives to all. But they use the gifts of God with justice, and hence they win the future and eternal glory by their
[own] free will.
God knows that they will reach this eternal glory. But they do not know it, nor does God tell them in any way. Extraordinary gifts are
not—of themselves—a sure sign of glory: they are a more severe means than others to test the spirit of a man in his will, virtue, and fidelity to God and to His Law. God knows. He rejoices in anticipation to know that this creature will reach glory; just as He suffers in anticipation to know that this other creature will, voluntarily, reach damnation.
But in no way does He intervene to force the free choice of any creature so that it may arrive where God wants all to arrive: in Heaven. "
 

nairobilay

Village Sponsor
#9
if he does not know the future, then whats the point of praying to him?
We pray for strength, for guidance..not to ask him whats going to happen next week!

Us as humans are governed by time and physical laws therefore i think it is hard to understand God' s view of time, but is is what Jesus says concerning eternity...........
"
There are still prequalifications even in what you quote. "All men without exception are predestined to grace....Those who remain faithful..are predestined to glory". In the arguement you present the big if is that as long as you are faithul to God's word/will. If God's will is absolute why the boolean operator in his law?
 

john_doe

Village Elder
#11
@nairobilay What Jesus is trying to explain is that every human is predestined to GRACE since He died for all of our sins but only those who are faithful to His will are predestined to GLORY.
God knows our destiny, He knows the choices we will make in our lifetime with regard to freewill. Jesus knew that judas would betray Him since the first time He met him, When judas first met judas, judas wanted to follow him but Jesus told him to go and come back after a specified period of time ( few weeks or months) so that judas could reflect on why he wanted to follow Christ. Judas came back and they had a very lengthy conversation with Jesus, Jesus did not want judas to follow him because He knew by following Him judas would betray Him but He could not tell Judas about his destiny and change his will since afterall judas had free will.
 

nairobilay

Village Sponsor
#12
@nairobilay What Jesus is trying to explain is that every human is predestined to GRACE since He died for all of our sins but only those who are faithful to His will are predestined to GLORY.
God knows our destiny, He knows the choices we will make in our lifetime with regard to freewill. Jesus knew that judas would betray Him since the first time He met him, When judas first met judas, judas wanted to follow him but Jesus told him to go and come back after a specified period of time ( few weeks or months) so that judas could reflect on why he wanted to follow Christ. Judas came back and they had a very lengthy conversation with Jesus, Jesus did not want judas to follow him because He knew by following Him judas would betray Him but He could not tell Judas about his destiny and change his will since afterall judas had free will.
Then he (Judas) didnt have a say in the matter did he? Thats not freewill at all. And thats why I propose that God cannot know what we would choose, but since he knows us intimately, he sets the conditions that will make us more likely to lean toward a path he would want things to go. But if we choose the other path, he recovers and readjusts the game. What im getting at is that God is like a CEO of a company. He knows if he does X and Y and the conditions of the environment remain constant or change in this direction, then Z will happen. And if Z happens, I need to do A, B and C for D to happen.
This does not rely on knowing the what will be but using past and present information to steer the future. Seeing how God knows all that is happening at this moment and everything in the past those are powerful tools to predicting what is most likely to happen to a very high degree of certainity.
 

Purr_27

Village Elder
#13
Then he (Judas) didnt have a say in the matter did he? Thats not freewill at all. And thats why I propose that God cannot know what we would choose, but since he knows us intimately, he sets the conditions that will make us more likely to lean toward a path he would want things to go. But if we choose the other path, he recovers and readjusts the game. What im getting at is that God is like a CEO of a company. He knows if he does X and Y and the conditions of the environment remain constant or change in this direction, then Z will happen. And if Z happens, I need to do A, B and C for D to happen.
This does not rely on knowing the what will be but using past and present information to steer the future. Seeing how God knows all that is happening at this moment and everything in the past those are powerful tools to predicting what is most likely to happen to a very high degree of certainity.
Someone had to betray Jesus because he was destined to die , But Judas instead of asking for forgiveness like Simon Peter did .He committed

suicide , did God precondition this I highly doubt so..

But pple have free will to choose , and as a chain reaction events happen
 

john_doe

Village Elder
#14
Jesus could not force His will to judas, judas did have a say because he had the freedom to do what was right but instead he betrayed Jesus. Jesus did not force judas to betray Him.

In short GOD does not force His will on man but He gives us the freedom to choose between good or evil having told us what is right or wrong. NOTE : Even by giving us freewill He already knows the choices we will make in the long run.
 

nairobilay

Village Sponsor
#15
Someone had to betray Jesus because he was destined to die , But Judas instead of asking for forgiveness like Simon Peter did .He committed

suicide , did God precondition this I highly doubt so..

But pple have free will to choose , and as a chain reaction events happen
I would argue that He did. At no point in the entire scripture does Judas act like a shifty guy. Not till Jesus starts saying one of you will betray me. If that is not preconditioning, what is? And Judas did feel contrite as shown by his attempt to return the silver.

My point on free-will is that if we do have it, then it limits God's nature as pertains to the future.
 

nairobilay

Village Sponsor
#16
Even by giving us freewill He already knows the choices we will make in the long run.
This is the crux of the matter! If he knows then its not free-will and is pre-destination. Meaning, what you do in this life doesnt matter, it has been played out in a time-line ahead of you. Thus, every evil or wrong thing you do has already been pre-ordained by God. Seeing how God is all good and cannot be evil, this cannot be true.
Hence why I subscribe to my(?) proposal that God cannot and has not pre-destined your future, thus nullifying the good and evil paradox of His nature.
 
O

Owuadn

Guest
#17
I asked this very question and received no Satisfactory answer.
God knew Hitler's biography before he created him. What does that tell us about God?
 

nairobilay

Village Sponsor
#18
I asked this very question and received no Satisfactory answer.
God knew Hitler's biography before he created him. What does that tell us about God?
I would say, that God created Hitler like any other person. He did not with all certainty have known what Hitler would have done at the time, and Hitlers action were a result of free-will not predestination.
 

emali

Village Elder
#19
We pray for strength, for guidance..not to ask him whats going to happen next week!


There are still prequalifications even in what you quote. "All men without exception are predestined to grace....Those who remain faithful..are predestined to glory". In the arguement you present the big if is that as long as you are faithul to God's word/will. If God's will is absolute why the boolean operator in his law?
how can u pray for guidance if he himself does not know how and where to guide to you? If he does not know the future doesnt that him more like you and me? we know the present and the past not the future..of all that is happening in the universe, creation of stars, supernovae, expansion of the universe, annihilation of stars, planets by black holes etc why would a god be concerned with how u choose to live ur life or if u went to church last sunday?
 

Ingia

Village Elder
#20
Since people here arent going to admit there is no god, let me try find a logical place for it/him/her. On assumption there is a god, and given your current understanding of free will, is god something you can trust??? Is he/it/her worth keeping an agreement with??? Is it worth pleasing at all??? Given the apparent misfortune of people who claim to be next to god, to be his sons, daughters, sheep etc, is it wise to go near it/him/her, or swear allegiance to it/him/her???? Further, given the success of apparently evil people who use covert means to rule and dominate, does this god of yours have any say at all?? or what kind of a god is it???

I do not find any reason to give a place for such things in the small space of my finite life and thought. Whatever it could be, it is simply not a subject to consider giving a shit about.
 
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