Still on the ‘poem of Man God’

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karl marx

Village Elder
#1
I still feel something inside telling me to talk more about this book. Well, I have read countless books on Christianity but there is something inside this book that is just transforming my life. For sure I am changing. Of course I am not about to become an irrational Christian fundamentalist but deep inside me, I feel I am being recreated. Reading this book, I have discovered what God is all about: Love. Love and Love. Well, some might object and say that this book is not divinely inspired but do people realise that this is the first book(on mysticism) to be approved by science(in regard to how it authentically and very accurately describe first century Palestine, the medical process behind death through crucifixion and the stellar configuration on the eve of Jesus crucifixion).

How can a simple lady who never left Italy manage to precisely name ancient towns in Palestine that were discovered much later by scientists?

When you read sections on the discourses by Jesus, you 100% feel that it is God speaking to you. You literally feel your hair rising.

You will read about Jesus explaining how the universe was formed. Yes, the whole science.

You will literally shed tears once you read the whole section from Jesus arrest to his death.

You will discover the immensity of Jesus love and how he used all the methods that he could to save Judas including almost kneeling in front of him weeping and begging him not to go to Jerusalem because he(judas) was sick…………..and, consequently, you will learn about why Jesus declared that Judas is the biggest sinner in history(Yes, even worse than Hitler)

Just spare some time and peruse this book. Or, better still, start with this website: www.valtorta.org

Karl Marx is becoming a new creature. I now understand what the love of God is all about.
 

john_doe

Village Elder
#2
You are not alone, i first heard about this book this year and since i begun reading it, it has spiritually enlightened me so much
 

emali

Village Elder
#3
is this book better than the bible, new version of the bible, more detailed bible? na imekuwa wapi hizo miaka zote tangu yesu akufe?
 

danji1

Village Elder
#4
So Judas was sick? Seems there are things not mentioned in the bible that are in that Valtorta book. Intriguing!
 

emali

Village Elder
#6
wacha ni jijibu hilo swali nimeuliza hapo juu ^^^ written as an extension of the bible ya a catholic nun who had visions about the life of jesus.. in the 1940's...this is how sects are formed...this must be how the original book, the bible, was written
 

aviator

Village Elder
#7
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

What do you make of the poem in relation to the above words @karl marx?
 

karl marx

Village Elder
#8
Aviator, let me quote exactly what Jesus says in that book(He had already anticipated that people would reject the book)(Volume 5 the very last part):

"Further: if you object that the revelation was closed with the last Apostle, and there was
nothing further to add, because the same Apostle says in Revelation: “If anyone adds
anything to them, God will add to him every plague mentioned in the book” (22:18) and
that can be understood for all the Revelation, the last completion of which is the
Revelation by John, I reply to you that with this work no addition was made to
revelation, but only the gaps, brought about by natural causes and by supernatural will,
were filled in"
 
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karl marx

Village Elder
#9
So Judas was sick? Seems there are things not mentioned in the bible that are in that Valtorta book. Intriguing!
Not conventional sickness as such. Jesus knew that Satan was already taking over Judas so essentially he was telling him that he was sick spiritually and going to Jerusalem would only mean psychological manipulation by the high priests. Of course Judas eventually met the Sanhedrin and below is what took place:

Judas Goes to the Leaders of the Sanhedrin...................................................194

Judas arrives at Caiaphas' country house at night. But the moon acts as an accomplice

of the murderer, illuminating the road for him. He must be certain that he will find

there, in that house outside the walls, those he is looking for, otherwise I think he would

have tried to enter the town and he would have gone to the Temple. Instead, he is

climbing among the olive-trees of the little hill – without a moment's hesitation. This

time he is more certain than the previous time, because it is night-time, and the darkness and the late hour protect from every possible surprise. The country roads are

now deserted, after being busy all day with the crowds of pilgrims going to Jerusalem

for Passover. Even poor lepers are now in their caves and are sleeping the sleep of

unhappy people, forgetting their fate for a few hours.

Judas is now at the door of the house, which is all white in the moonlight. He knocks:

three times, once, three times again, twice… Even the conventional signal is familiar to

him! And it must be a sure signal, because the door is half-opened without any check by

the door-keeper through the peep-hole in the door

Judas steals in and asks the servant porter: «Have the members assembled?»

«Yes, Judas of Kerioth, they have. A full assembly, I might say.»

«Take me there. I have to speak of an important matter. Quick!»

The man locks the door with all the bolts, and precedes him along a semi-dark

vestibule, stopping in front of a heavy door, at which he knocks. The murmur of the

voices in the closed room stops, and is replaced by the noise of the lock and the

squeaking of the door, which is opened, and a cone of bright light is projected on the

dark corridor.

«It's you? Come in!» says the person who opened the door and who is unknown to me.

And Judas goes into the hall, while the man who opened the door locks it again.

2 There are signs of surprise or at least of excitement, when they see Judas enter the

room. But they greet him all together: «Peace to you, Judas of Simon.»

«Peace to you, members of the holy Sanhedrin» greets Judas.

«Come forward. What do you want?» they ask him.

«I want to speak to you… of the Christ. It is not possible to go on like this. I can no

longer be of any assistance to you, unless you make up your minds to take drastic

measures. The man is suspicious by now.»

«Have you given yourself away, you fool?» they exclaim interrupting him.

«No. But you are the fools, as you have made the wrong move by hurrying things in a

stupid way. You knew very well that I would serve you! But you did not trust me.»

«You have a weak memory, Judas of Simon! Don't you remember how you parted from

us the last time? Who could think that you were loyal to us, when you proclaimed in

that way that you could not betray Him?» says Helkai ironically, and he sounds more

venomous than ever.

«And do you think that it is easy to get to deceive a friend, the Only One Who really

loves me, the Innocent? Do you think it is easy to go so far as to commit a crime?»

Judas is excited.

They try to calm him down. They coax him. And they allure him, or at least they try to

do so, pointing out that he will not commit a crime «but a holy deed for his Fatherland,

whom he will spare reprisals from the rulers, who are already giving signs of

intolerance because of the continual public commotions and divisions of parties and

crowds in a Roman province; and for Mankind, if He is really convinced of the divine

nature of the Messiah and of His spiritual mission.»

Another says: «If what He says is true – far be it from us to believe it – are you not the

collaborator of Redemption? Your name will be associated to His forever, and your

Fatherland will number you with her valiant men, and will honour you with the highest

dignities. A seat among us is ready for you. You will rise, Judas. You will lay down

laws for Israel. Oh! We shall not forget what you have done for the welfare of the holy

Temple, of the holy Priesthood; for the protection of the most holy Law; and for the

welfare of the whole Nation!

All you have to do is to help us, then we swear to you, I swear to you in the name of my

powerful father and of Caiaphas, who is now wearing the ephod, you will be the

greatest man in Israel. Greater than the tetrarchs, greater than my father, now a High

Priest put out of office. Like a king, like a prophet, you will be served and listened to.

And if Jesus of Nazareth should be but a false Messiah, even if He really should not be

liable to death because His deeds are not those of a robber, but of a madman, we remind

you of the inspired words of the pontiff Caiaphas – you know that he wears the ephod

and the rational speaks through divine suggestion and prophesies what is good and what

is to be done – Caiaphas, do you remember? Caiaphas said: “It is better for one man to

die for the people, than for the whole Nation to be destroyed.” It was a prophetic word.»

«It was really a prophecy. The Most High spoke through the lips of the High Priest. Let

him be obeyed!» say all together those dirty puppets, the members of the great council

of the Sanhedrin, who already sound theatrical, and look like automata who are to make

certain gestures.

3 Judas is influenced, and allured… But there is still a little common sense, if not

goodness, in him, and this restrains him from uttering the fatal words.

Surrounding him with respect and feigned affection, they urge him, saying: «Don't you

believe us? Look: we are the heads of the twenty-four priestly families, the Elders of

the people, the scribes, the greatest Pharisees in Israel, the wise rabbis, the magistrates

of the Temple. The cream of Israel is here, around you, ready to acclaim you, and by

one consent we say to you: “Do it, because it is a holy deed.”»

Judas replies: «And where is Gamaliel? And Joseph and Nicodemus, where are they?

And where is Eleazar, Joseph's friend, and where is John of Gaash? I don't see them.»

«Gamaliel has secluded himself to do severe penance. John is with his pregnant wife

who is poorly this evening. Eleazar… we do not know why he has not come. But

anybody can be seized by a sudden illness, don't you think? With regard to Joseph and

Nicodemus, we have not informed them of this secret meeting for your sake, and for the

sake of your honour… so that, if our plan should unluckily fail, your name would not

be reported to the Master… We are protecting your name. We love you, Judas, the new

Maccabee, saviour of our Fatherland.»

«The Maccabee fought a good battle. I… am betraying.» says Judas.

«Do not consider the details of the action, but the justice of the purpose. 4 Will you

please speak, Sadoc, the golden scribe. Precious words flow from your lips. If Gamaliel

is learned, you are wise, because the wisdom of God is on your lips. Speak to this man

who still hesitates.»

That crook Sadoc comes forward followed by a decrepit Hananiah, an emaciated dying

fox, beside a shrewd strong cruel jackal.

«Listen, o man of God!» begins Sadoc pompously, assuming an inspired oratorial

attitude, his right arm stretched forward in Ciceronian style, his left one engaged in

holding up the heap of folds forming his scribe garment. He then raises also his left

arm, allowing his monumental garment to spread out untidily, and thus, with his face

and arms raised towards the ceiling of the room, he says in a thundering voice: «I say

unto you! I say unto you in the Most High Presence of God!»

«Maran Atha!» they all exclaim, stooping, as if a supreme inspiration bent them, then

rising with their arms crossed on their chests.

«I say unto you. It is written in the pages of our history and of our fate! It is written in

the signs and figures left by ages! It is written in the rite celebrated uninterruptedly

since the night fatal to the Egyptians! It is written in the figure of Isaac! It is written in

the figure of Abel! And let what is written come true.»

«Maran Atha!» say the others in a low mournful striking chorus, repeating the previous

gestures, their faces oddly illuminated by the light of two chandeliers of pale-violet

mica, shedding a phatasmagoric light at the ends of the hall. The assembly of men,

almost all dressed in white, with the pale or olive complexions of their race, made even

more pale and olive by the diffused light, really looks like a gathering of ghosts.

«The word of God has descended upon the lips of the prophets to approve this decree.

He must die! It is stated!»

«It is stated! Maran Atha!»

«He must die, His destiny is marked!»

«He must die. Maran Atha!»

«His fatal destiny is described to the last detail, and fatality cannot be infringed!»

«Maran Atha!»

«Even the symbolic price to be paid to him who becomes the instrument of God for the

fulfillment of the promise is indicated!»

«It is indicated! Maran Atha!»

«As Redeemer, or as false prophet, He must die!»

«He must die! Maran Atha!»

«The hour has come! Jehovah wants it! I can hear His voice! It is shouting: “Let it be

accomplished!”»

«The Most High has spoken! Let it be accomplished! Let it be accomplished! Maran

Atha!»

«Let Heaven fortify you as it fortified Jael and Judith, who were women and behaved

like heroes; as it fortified Jephthah, who, a father, sacrificed his daughter to his

Fatherland; as it fortified David against Goliath, and do the deed that will make peoples

remember Israel forever!»

«May Heaven fortify you. Maran Atha!»

«Be the winner!»

«Be the winner! Maran Atha!»

The clucking senile voice of Hananiah is heard:«He who hesitates over a sacred order is

condemned to dishonour and death!»

«Is condemned. Maran Atha!»

«If you do not listen to the voice of the Lord your God, and you do not carry out His

order and what He orders you through our words, may all maledictions fall upon you!»

«All the maledictions! Maran Atha!»

«May the Lord strike you with all the Mosaic curses and may He scatter you among the

nations.»

«May He strike and scatter you! Maran Atha!»

5 Dead silence follows this impressive scene… Everything becomes motionless in

frightening stillness.

At last Judas' voice is heard, and it is so changed, that I recognise it with difficulty:

«Yes. I will do it. I must do it. And I will do it. The last part of the Mosaic curses is

already my share, and I must get rid of it because I have already delayed too long. I am

becoming mad, because I have no peace or respite. My heart is frightened, I look

bewildered, and my soul is consumed by sadness. I tremble at the idea of being found

out and crushed by Him for my double-crossing – because I do not know how much He

is aware of my thoughts – I see my life hanging by a thread, and morning and evening I

implore to get over with this hour because of the terror that frightens my heart. Because

of the horrible task I must perform. Oh! bring this hour forward! Release me from my

anguish! Let everything be done. At once! Now! That I may be freed! Let us go!»

Judas' voice has become firmer and stronger as he speaks. His gestures, previously

automatic and insecure, like those of a sleepwalker, have become free and voluntary.

He stands up in all his height, diabolically handsome, and shouts: «Let the ties of a

foolish error fall! I am free from fearful subjection, Christ! I am no longer afraid of You

and I am handing You to Your enemies! Let us go!» A cry of a victorious demon, and

he boldly goes towards the door.

6 But they stop him: «Wait! Tell us: where is Jesus of Nazareth?»

«In Lazarus' house. At Bethany.»

«We cannot enter that house, as it is well provided with faithful servants. It's the house

of a favourite of Rome. We should certainly come up against much trouble.»

«Well, we are coming to town at dawn. Place guards on the Bethphage road, stir up a

turmoil and capture Him.»

«How do you know that He will come along that road? He may take the other one…»

«No. He told His followers that He will go into town that way, by the Ephraim gate,

and to wait for Him near En Rogel. If you capture Him before…»

«We cannot. We would have to go into town with Him among the guards, and all the

roads leading to the gates, and all the streets in town are crowded with people from

dawn till night. There would be a riot. And that must not happen.»

«He will go up to the Temple. Ask Him to come into one of the halls to question Him.

Tell Him to come in the name of the High Priest. He will come, because He has more

respect for you than for His own life. Once He is alone with you... you will have the

opportunity to take Him to a safe place and to condemn Him at the right moment.»

«There would be a riot just the same. You must have noticed that the crowds are

completely won over by Him. And not only the crowds, but also the great ones and the

hopes of Israel. Gamaliel is losing his disciples, and so is Jonathan ben Uziel and others

among us, and they are all leaving us, seduced by Him. Even the Gentiles venerate

Him, or they fear Him, which is also veneration, and they are ready to rebel against us

if we ill-treat Him. Among other things, some of the brigands we had hired to act as

false disciples and stir up brawls, have been arrested and they have spoken hoping for

mercifulness in return for their information, and the Praetor knows... The whole world

follows Him, whilst we are concluding nothing. But it is necessary to act subtly, so that

the crowds may not become aware of anything.»

«Yes. That is how it must be done. Even Annas recommends that. He says: “It must not

happen during the festivities, and there must be no disturbance among the fanatic

people.” That is what he ordered, and he gave orders that He should be treated with

respect in the Temple and elsewhere, and that He should not be disturbed, in order to

deceive Him.»

«So, what do you want to do? I was quite willing tonight, but you are hesitating…»

says Judas.

«Well, you should take us to Him when He is all alone. You are aware of His habits.

You wrote to us that He wants you to be closer to Him than anybody else. So you must

know what He wants to do. We shall always be ready. When you think that it is the

right place and the right moment, come, and we will follow you.»

«Agreed. 7 And what retribution shall I receive?» Judas is now speaking coldly, as if he

were dealing with common business.

«What is mentioned by the prophets, so that we may be faithful to the inspired word:

thirty silver pieces…»

«Thirty silver pieces to kill a man, and that Man? The price of a common lamb during

these festivities?! You are mad! It is not that I need money. I have plenty. So do not

think that you can convince me for greed of money. It is too little to compensate, for my

grief in betraying Him Who has always loved me.»

«But we have told you what we will do for you. Glory, honours! What you were hoping

to have from Him, and you did not get. We will cure your disappointment. But the price

has been fixed by the prophets! Oh! it is a formality! A symbol and nothing else. The

rest will follow later…»

«And the money when?»

«The moment you say to us: “Come”. Not before. No one pays before taking possession

of the goods. Don't you think that is fair?»

«It is fair. But at least treble the amount…»

«No. That is what the prophets said. And that is what has to be done. Oh! we will obey

the prophets! We will not omit an iota of what they wrote of Him. Ha! Ha! Ha! We are

loyal to the inspired word! Ha! Ha! Ha!» laughs the revolting skeleton of Hananiah.

And many join him with mournful, vulgar, false laughter, a true cachination of demons

who can but sneer. Because laughter is typical of serene loving spirits, and sneer is

peculiar to upset hearts sated with wrath.

«Everything has been said. You may go. We will await dawn to go back to town by

different roads. Goodbye. Peace be with you, lost sheep, who are returning to

Abraham's flock. Peace to you! Peace to you! And the gratitude of the whole of Israel!

Rely on us! A desire of yours is a law to us. May God be with you, as He was with all

His more faithful servants! All the blessings on you!»

They take him to the door with embraces and protestations of love… they watch him go

away along the half-dark corridor… they listen to the noise of the locks of the door that

is opened and closed…

8 They go back to the hall exulting.

Only two or three voices can be heard, those of the less demoniac ones: «And now?

How shall we behave with Judas of Simon? We know very well that we cannot give

him what we promised, except those miserable thirty silver pieces!... What will he say

when he realises that he has been betrayed by us? Shall we not have caused greater

damage? Will he not go around telling the people what we have done? We know that he

is a man who changes his mind.»

«You are quite simply foolish having such thoughts and worrying thus! It has already

been decided what we will do to Judas. It was decided the last time. Don't you

remember? And we will not change our minds. After everything is finished with the

Christ, Judas shall die. That is settled.»

«But if he should speak before?»

«To whom? To the disciples and to the people, to be stoned? He will not speak. The

horror of his deed will gag him…»

«But he may repent in future, he may feel remorse, he may even become mad…

Because his remorse, if it should awaken, could only drive him mad…»

«He will not have time. We will see to that before. Everything at the right moment. The

Nazarene first, then the man who betrayed Him» says Helkai slowly, in a dreadful tone.

«Yes. And mind! Not a word to those who are absent. They already know too much of

our thoughts. I don't trust Joseph and Nicodemus. And I don't rely much on the others.»

«Do you doubt Gamaliel?»

«He has stood aloof from us for many months. He will not take part in our meetings

without a personal order from the pontiff. He says that he is writing his work with the

assistance of his son. But I am speaking of Eleazar and John.»

«Oh! They have never contradicted us» says at once a member of the Sanhedrin, whom

I have seen sometimes with Joseph of Arimathea, but whose name I do not remember.

«Nay! They have not contradicted us enough. Ha! Ha! Ha! And we shall have to watch

them! Many snakes have built their nests in the Sanhedrin, I think... Ha! Ha! Ha! But

they will be dislodged... Ha! Ha! Ha!» says Hananiah, as he goes, shaking and

trembling, leaning on his stick, looking for a comfortable place on one of the low wide

seats covered with thick carpets, placed against the walls of the hall, and he lied down

happily, and soon falls asleep, with his mouth open, looking ugly in his wicked old age.

They watch him, And Doras, the son of Doras, says: «He has the satisfaction of seeing

this day. My father dreamt of it but did not have it. I will carry his spirit in my heart, so

that he may be present on the day of the revenge upon the Nazarene, and he may

rejoice...»

9 «Remember that we must be constantly in the Temple, in turns, and many of us in

each turn.»

«We will do that.»

«We will have to give instructions to take Judas of Simon to the High Priest at any

time.»

«We will arrange that.»

«And now let us prepare our hearts for the final task.»

«They are already prepared! They are ready!»

«Cunningly.»

«Cunningly.»

«Subtly.»

«Subtly.»

«To avoid all suspicion.»

«To allure every heart.»

«Whatever He may say or do, we shall not react. We will revenge ourselves for

everything at one go.»

«We will do that. And it will be cruel vengeance.»

«A thorough one!»

«And dreadful!»

And they sit down trying to rest while waiting for dawn.


 
#10
@aviator, this is what Jesus later told a priest regarding the book:
"I have dictated to Maria Valtorta, a victim soul, a marvelous work. Of this work I am the Author. You yourself, Son, have taken account of the raging reactions of Satan.... You have verified the resistance that many priests oppose to this work. This also proves, Son, that he who has not sensed in the Poem the savor of the Divine, the perfume of the Supernatural, has a soul encumbered and darkened. If it were -- I do not say "read" --but studied and meditated, it would bring an immense good to souls. This work is a well-spring of serious and solid culture.... This is a work willed by Wisdom and Divine Providence for the new times. It is a spring of living and pure water. It is I, the Word living and eternal, Who have given Myself anew as nourishment to the souls that I love. I, Myself, am the Light, and the Light cannot be confused with, and still less blend Itself with, the darkness. Where I am found, the darkness is dissolved to make room for the Light|
 

danji1

Village Elder
#14
@aviator, this is what Jesus later told a priest regarding the book:
"I have dictated to Maria Valtorta, a victim soul, a marvelous work. Of this work I am the Author. You yourself, Son, have taken account of the raging reactions of Satan.... You have verified the resistance that many priests oppose to this work. This also proves, Son, that he who has not sensed in the Poem the savor of the Divine, the perfume of the Supernatural, has a soul encumbered and darkened. If it were -- I do not say "read" --but studied and meditated, it would bring an immense good to souls. This work is a well-spring of serious and solid culture.... This is a work willed by Wisdom and Divine Providence for the new times. It is a spring of living and pure water. It is I, the Word living and eternal, Who have given Myself anew as nourishment to the souls that I love. I, Myself, am the Light, and the Light cannot be confused with, and still less blend Itself with, the darkness. Where I am found, the darkness is dissolved to make room for the Light|
Who else witnessed that? How do we know Jesus revealed himself to Maria and that priest?
 

uncle nyam

Village Elder
#16
@karl mark, Why doesn't the Lord reveal himself to all of us publicly at once and end this eternal debate? Wouldn't it be a better idea rather than letting us mere mortals decide whether its Allah, yahwe, Buddha, etc we want to believe in and later punish us for that freedom of choice.? Take this example, an immortal king has traveled to a far away land and left his kingdom. After a while, word reaches him that the children of his subjects who never saw him personally, are being misled to follow other false kings instead of him. The question is, what is the most sensible thing to do? Wouldn't it be more prudent to return to his people as a matter of urgency and smite those who led his people astray? Instead he chooses to let his beloved people believe what they want to but be prepared for eternal torture in fire come a day of judgment which no one knows... If you were a loving king what would you do?
 
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