Its a setup
I stopped reading where you mentioned an agreement about about non fixed winged planes. I believe single pilot F series jets which obviously donât use rotors are the real Mccoy. Sorry for pissing on your parade.
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Thank you very much.
Each plane in a military organisation is built to fulfil certain requirements such as
Air interdiction
Air superiority
Aerial reconnaissance
Forward air control
Interception
Close air surport
Electronic warfare
Multirole/swing role
Suppression of enemy air defence
E.t.c
There are planes that have a primary objective then the ability to do the rest like the F-22 is primarily built to create air superiority over contested airspace. They had to add the ability to take out ground targets but its not really good at this. Another good example is the Eurofighter. In all this Syrian issues, have you seen or heard of it anywhere near there? The F-15 also was mainly air superiority until the E was made.
Any jet can be an interceptor to stop enemy aircraft from carrying out their plan
Air interdiction is where an aircraft is used to strike ground targets deep inside enemy territory, like what Israel did to Iraqi reactors. This doesnt necessarily have its own type of aircraft. Air superiority jets/multirole/swingrole can do it like F-15E, F-16, F/A-18 e.t.c. This is not in direct support of troops on the ground
Multirole/swingrole are those that are made to be a jack of all trades (master of none) like the F/A-18.
Close air support is where aircraft are used to take out enemy targets that are in close proximity to friendly forces. This is where weâre looking at. Here, the F-22, eurofighter, Su-27 and descendants are absolute shite. They cant do it properly. The F-15E, F-16, mig-29 and F/A-18E/F can do it effectively but kuna wenyeji in the form of the slow moving A-10 which were purpose built for the job literally and Harriers (beautiful bird) originally built as a multirole plane found itself better at CAS. Both these planes cannot reach supersonic speeds and have lower stall speeds which allow for better targeting with their cannons and this is where the apache comes in. The ability to hover and move at slower speeds while providing greater firepower than these two (ok, I stretched the truth. That cannon on the A-10 is a bomb) without having to go through various different commands in order to get support aircraft for troops in contact is what they were looking for. Reduced response time = reduced number of lives lost.
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Donât believe so much the hype on the apache longbow, its sells pitch has been here for 2 decades now. Russia gladly takes note and improve on their own without sharing anything like the usa bravado. There is also a great difference between the K - 50 and K - 52 and most of the attributes you have mentioned including older technology is the K-50. K-50 production has stopped in favour of K-52.
K-50 - They stopped its production in favour of the newer lethal K - 52
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Ka-50_Black_Shark_lg.jpg
K-52 added advantage is that it has a version that can be used by the navy, a pure high flying tactical reconnaissance tactical command chopper for the airforce and a lethal ground attack chopper for the army. Yes, in a emergency one pilot can fly the chopper and still take out assets because of its side by side pilot configuration. He simply overides the co-pilot console and consolidate it into one. Russia has also upgraded all avionicâs, digital battlefield communication and sharing platform for all assets i.e tanks, troops, armour, choppers, UAV, jets and satellites. Even the apache hellfire missiles are now outdated. The Mi-28 is the set rival for Apache as they both hover just above the tree line taking out troops and armour. Mi-28 has the Igla air to air/ground fire and forget missiles. The 9K114 Shturm anti-tank armour missles. Since the somali and Afghanistan wars, Russia saw how terrorist and talibans shoot down the apache easily once it was attacked from behind using RPGâs. They therefore installed sensitive heat seeking radars on the Mi-28 to shoot down individual troops and a reverse gun at the back to prevent such ambush. The K-52 is target designate up in the air at 5000 feet commanding the battlefield and taking out radars, missiles brigades, artillery, troop formation and low flying UAVâs/Jets. The K-52 has the k-25 missiles that can take out anything from armour, troops, choppers, jets and ships. The countermeasures are supported by active IR and electronic jammers, radar warning receiver (RWR), laser detection system, IR missile approach warning sensor and UV-26 flare / chaff dispensers in wing-tip fairings. The havoc and Alligator proved themselves in the covert Ukraine civil war in taking out modern versions of Russian/Ukraine armour and assets in near stealth mode, out of sight and radar. Havoc even shotdown snipers at night while dropping russian special forces âSpetsnazâ in the battlefield. They both combined well agian in Syria in supporting the syrian troops in retaking rebel cities. Alligator was cordinating vast array of assets on the ground including little known UAVs while pounding ukraine troops and assets. In the end their is no clear cut winner but my money is on the combine tagteam of Havoc and Alligator over Apache anytime.
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/DATA_Russian_Attack_Helicopter_Comparisons.gif
K-52
http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/kamov-ka52-alligator-attack-helicopter.jpg
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Alternatively we can look to China and get the Z - 10 Attack Helicopter. They are cheaper at $11 million each. Still very effective for our KDF needs and still leaves enough in our treasury to build schools, hospitals, roads etc. The Apache is expensive like iâve mentioned severally at $51 million each, needs 4 highly trained crew to arm and refuel. For example the dutch government is replacing its apache with the euro chopper because of high cost to maintain and arm them. This only takes 2 crew to do all that. Its readily available for the export market despite only coming into service 2 years ago. Pakistan has already bought some and took delivery of 4 last year.
http://newtimes.az/modules/articles/dataimages/IMG_64905A-9F06C1-BA8AD3-39B059-584B10-8857AB.jpg
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Tell me about it. Same guy analilia kenya ibaki na f5 but anataka tununue apache. Haelewi defense needs za kenya kapsaaa:D:D:D
Now this is what Kenya needs, with a combination of hinds.
Unfortunately if thereâs something the Americans are good at is developing and applying technology to the point Winston Churchill said if he had Canadian troops, British officers and American technology, heâd rule the world. Technology is not something the Americans use sparingly, they know it is the difference between a good machine and a great one. The black shark and alligator are playing catchup with the D Longbow while the Americans have already moved on to the E guardian. These capabilities you are explaining the Apache had them in the 90âs and as you know, there are classified features which the world will only get to know after it has become near obsolete.The Russians do not yet have the ability to control UAVâs from a helicopter. What they did was improve sharing of data between platforms, again, something the Americans have had for a while
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlefield_Airborne_Communications_Node
The longbow aint that old, first ones appeared in early 2000âs
Did you know the Brits have operated their WAH-64D from helicopter carriers since 2003 its only recently the Americans decided to do the same?
This one has more powerful engines than the American versions? Now that its the Egyptians getting the Mistral helicopter carriers and not Russia, we can only wait to see what will set the 52K apart from the apaches next door in Israel. Israelis most probably added features to theirs that the Americans do not have.
The 50 is still in production. Production resumed in 2009 as the Russians view it as the special forces support helicopter
The 52 is just a two seat version of the 50.The Ka-52 retains the side-mounted cannon of the original Ka-50.It features six wing-mounted hardpoints as opposed to four on the Ka-50. In order to keep the weight and performance on par with that of the Ka-50, some trade-offs were introduced to the design; the scale of the armour plating and the capacity of the cannon magazine/feed have been reduced. Despite the introductions, some flight parameters have deteriorated; rate of climb is 8 m/s (vs. 10 m/s), maximum positive load factor is 3.0 g. For a helo to fly at itâs maximum ceiling, there has to be issues down there and again flying at high altitudes exposes it to fighters as it has already deprived itself of the camouflage ground clatter provides against radar. The fighter pilot already knows the helo can defeat missiles but it is slow moving, shoot it down by using the cannons. Having electronic countermeasures carried in a pod instead of the fuselage means less weapons carried.
Mi-28 has a capacity to carry three passengers and that is reserved for downed air crew. Carrying spetsnaz is left to the Mi-35
http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/helicopters/military/mi-35m.html
Have you taken a look at the hellfire II and the brimstone? and the griffin on UAVs? Technology is one area the West is good at and that makes a difference. Even the older ones are still effective against armour, age doesnt mean it is less potent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brimstone_(missile)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-176_Griffin
The Mi-28 a match for tha apache. Physically, yes. Technologically, never. And a gun facing backwards? Heat seeking radars? Hehe, even the manufacturers dont know that one. The forward looking infrared constructs images from heat but since it is slaved to the pilots helmet, the pilot has to be physically looking in the direction of the attacker in order for a heat image to be rendered. All helicopters with tail rotors have their biggest vulnerabilty there. In spite of those lessons, one of theirs was shot down in syria
When tag teams are introduced, shit hits the fan. The OH-58 Kiowa WarriorâŚ
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_OH-58Ds_Kirkuk_Iraq_lg.jpg
(beautiful bird)
Kiowa arrives on scene first, takes out immediate threats then moves away to designate targets for the apache. Despite its exotic name, itâs a bell 206, the same ones used by KWS with all the relevant technologies put in.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_XXI_Battle_Command_Brigade_and_Below
That system allows the Kiowa to communicate with and keep track of friendly forces on the battlefield, as well as give targets to whatever assets are in the vicinity. That is called force multiplication. If theres an Abrams or a stryker or a bradley around, the tide changes. The wonders of technology
The other partner is one beautiful bird. I know youâve seen it aroundâŚ
http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/soar/mh-6.jpg
http://www.americanspecialops.com/images/photos/night-stalkers/ah-6-carrier.jpg
Yes, the very same one (well, not exactly)
When rangers and delta force were pinned down in mogadishu, who was there to support them?! Little bird!!! (I love that thing)
Its difficult to say who and who are on top. Wven the Chinese arent playing around with their Z-10 and Z-19 and since we already have the Z-9, who knows?
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Like I told you, you do not read!!! I said at the bottom of the post, let me have supper then come explain why Kenya does not need one. Did you conveniently fail to see that (As always)?
[ATTACH=full]37523[/ATTACH]
The thread is about the AH-64 apache not Kenya.
Priss, kama umeshindwa kusoma usikuje kupropagate ujinga, the thread was advancing well without your imbecilic tendencies.
Btw, since you know better, why donât you put your knowledge here niikague na nikuonyeshe haujui?
This is the one I was going to go to next. Now this makes sense to us as itâs possible to get integration systems from the chinese and add Z-9 to the mix. Itâs also why Iâm not jumping into the bandwagon of Mi-28. With the recent purchases of armoured vehicles from China, this could be the direction KDF will take
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My pardon. Sasa matusi ya nini?
You say i propagate ujinga yet you continue to make outrageous military remarks in your posts but i chose to look the other way. As i said too, kazi yako ni kicopy paste links without grasping the whole picture. You have to understand the basics first. But I wont resort to matusi. Just know, most of the time in military, experience cant cover the gap between techs. Hence your statement this statement very wrong
Itâs also able to defeat anti aircraft systems of any kind as long as the pilot is superbly trained.
You dont know have a grasp of AD systems, and on top of that you need to read everything about counter measures to missiles. Here is an idea, the s400 can shoot down ballistic missiles at their cruise. Upto you to find out what they are, their phases and different sppeds. When you fully understand that, maybe you will realise how outrageous that statement is.
Anyway, my opinion of you doesnt change. You read and copy paste one area instead of reading the whole thing leading to preposterous statements.
They should be
Like I told you, kazi yangu ya kucopy paste links ni kuprovide evidence to my claims, sio kama wewe unakuja kujieka all knowing na ukionyeshwa otherwise inakuwa wewe unajua zaidi kuliko kila mtu na hauwezi ambiwa.
Like I told you, you do not read. Able to doesnât always translate into will always. Sorry, when I made that statement, I was thinking about the operational environment of a helicopter and the air defence possible for that environment say a tunguska or pantsir. I didnt picture someone using something that could be used for more strategic decisions to shoot down a helicopter. I thought that would be common sense to dolts as well, seems I was wrong. The apache is highly capable of defeating manpads but was it not shot down in Iraq? So tell me, how did a task force made up of helicopters without cover from jets, sneak into Iraq and disable part of their radar network if not by defeating the systems? Or will you run away from that as usual?
My opinion of you still doesnât change. Unable to provide evidence and a know it all who actually knows nothing. Simple English defeats you and you canât construct sentences with proper diction. I dont even know why I bothered replying.
The Bell and Koiwa soft skin in a battlefield with Russian choppers is like taking a knife to a shootout. Yes they are more maneuverable but one hit anywhere and its disabled or completely lost. That i will leave only to the Mi-17-18 or Mi-35. They wouldnât even come close to the Havoc or alligator. Maybe the Cobra can. The usa has Force XXI battle command and ofcourse they will hype it. Russia is wise by not sharing its capabilities and keeping potential enemies guessing. The also dont have shareholders to please with endless PR to get more funding and sales. If you read that article they say âIn Ukraine, a rapidly mobilized Russian-supplied rebel army with surprisingly lethal tanks, artillery and anti-tank weapons has unleashed swarms of unmanned aerial vehicles and cyberattacks that shut down battlefield communications and even GPSâ GPS the backborne of usa defense communication. Iâm still trying to get the article by a nato officers in Ukraine that said they have imagery showing two Mi-18 dropping spetsnaz special forces i.e 6 troops. Just because its written that its reserved for downed airmen doesnât mean Russian command is tied to it. The mi-18 also has pods at the back that has no official use but isnât in the export version.
Yes they lost one chopper in Syria but remember ISIS was heavily armed by the west with anti-aircraft missiles before they turned on them. This is not the simple RPG that took out apache in Afghanistan or anti aircraft guns. Any asset now, west or east is more vulnerable to these missiles if detected at close range.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COeE6S9VAAEhmDs.jpg
http://rt.com/files/news/22/74/40/00/sa-16-1.jpg
http://globalriskinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/TOW_1-800x500_c.jpg
Lets keep it simple but effective $51 million each let rich Nato members buy the apache. Lets meet our own need at the price we can afford to buy, maintain and arm.
Read these article: Even in the usa people are questioning the apache cost vs effectiveness in the current battlefield. If they get a serious rival will they match up? Not overwhelmed Iraq, Libya or Syria.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2003/04/chop_the_chopper.html
Link on youtube on how apache was downed by gunfire. Physically means a lot too while technical ability at par.
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I was waiting for a footnote in the otherwise excellent write-up where the writer acknowledges that an attack helicopter, despite all that hardware, is not invincible and must be able to see all targets and neutralize them before they take their shots.
http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-guide-explains-how-shoot-down-us-apache-helicopters-1700768
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Yes but i canât see how all this hardware can help us against Alshabbab, our main external enemy
At $55 million a pop, an Apache in the KAF would be as appropriate as Kirubiâs Maybach on our roads. What we need are serviceable hand-me-down F-15s to help us upgrade those antique f-5s that have been flying singe Onyattoâs days.
Rotary wing aircraft should be limited to support roles, landing men and equipment in enemy-free areas, or S&R missions where the risks of enemy ground fire are limited.
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I missed this reply but iâm also too tired to look up this matter again today. I will reply in another post tomorrow looking in the possible successor to our F5.
St
Stick to the topic mate. You have a penchant for veering off. You always latch on to sth unrelated to the topic at hand. Last time I mentioned about the navy being given F5s you brought falklands war into it. How, it beats me. An apache invading a sovereign airspace isnt less threat, it will be brought down. Hakuna kitu kama less strategic threat. I used that as a scenario. Say, Germany decides to invade kaliningrad, it will be baptised by the s400. In your statement, you said anti aircraft system of any kind. Hukusema âpossible for that environmentâ. Far from that, again, you clearly have no odea what a pantsir can do. Absolutely nothing, empty kabisa.
The apache is an attack helicopter, it focuses so much on stealth, weapons and sacrificed armour department. Saudis apaches have easily been been brought down using Yemen.
[MEDIA=liveleak]328_1447901367[/MEDIA]
This one was downed by an assault rifle
https://i.imgsafe.org/8cd2692.jpg
https://i.imgsafe.org/b8ab947.jpg
You claim there is no way of stopping hellfire missiles. Thatâs why I said you got no grasp of military tech. Dont ask for links, you can google them. Besides, your links are shitty. In the other thread, you posted a link claiming Kenyaâs fleet of F5s are all F5-F variant. Kenya only has two F5-Fs, the rest are 5-E.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/kenya/air-force-modernization.htm
Thatâs global security, a mostly reliable source on matters defense. Mate, thatâs the reason why i never bothered replying again. You resorted to insults and compeletely went off topic.
Any body can copy paste info from wikipedia, it doesnt make you adept at military stuff. Esp when you claim Kenya knows the su30 radar frequency or the rapier to shoot down one using the su30âs bvr radar. I have actually never seen so much bullshit in my life.
About Iraq, you continue dispalying your lack of facts. The jets and helicopters came in after an initial attack from the navy in the persian gulf and stealth bombers (najua hujui hii nini begore uanze kusema ni myu anakimbia na bomb). Lots of tomahawks were launched on Iraq to disable key Iraq installations that paved way for air strikes.
Waaah!! That is your answer as to why the systems were disbaled. Not because of apaches.
This nonsense is why I never bothered replying in the other thread.
Changing the topic my foot. Itâs called giving references and scenarios. Courts world wide do it when passing judgement, lecturers use the techniqie to teach as well as academics when writing papers. That actually shows your level of intelligence if you canât grasp such a simple concept and I donât need your approval to post them.
All I see is a lot of type words and zero substance. Hereâs those things you hate which are used world over for reference; which you are now turning to. Consistency nayo?!! Siulisema you dont need links?
S-400 for dummies.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/heres-russias-s-400-missile-system-in-action-and-heres-1746490022
It has better things to do than target helicopters.
Global security an authority on matters military?! Somebody come shoot me in the head. That website is very much behind and known for including misinformation given out by militaries. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
This requires a drink, what hilarity!!!
Anybody can read but only you miss the crucial points floated. How dumb are you to believe the F-15âs were beaten 9:1 by the Indians in a like for like fight?!!! Hahahahahahahahha, oh the stupidity you possess is humongous!! That must be your best honed talent. I now see how military intelligence works. The bullshit Iâm reading is world class.
I said the air defence batallion would get the frequency the aircraft was operating on. You canât even paraphrase a statement to save your life!!!
Oh, btw. I asked you to provide a legitimate reason why the Navy needs the jets in this current economic posture and perceived enemies we supposedly have. Did you answer me or as usual, âdont ask me go googleâ
I only resorted to insults after I challenged you to provide evidence like everyone else has in this thread and you started calling me stupid.
Oh all knowing military expert, who wants to be worshipped but ends up shitting on himself. The coalition forces built up numbers on the Arabian peninsula in Desert Shield
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Desert_Shield_(Iraq)
And a UN resolution 678 which called for the withdrawal of Iraqi forces from Kuwait by 15th January or international forces will be free to take action. Not a single shot was fired before then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_678
Before the first shot was fired, there was a helicopter group that had been practising for a while after Gen Norman Schwarzkopf decided not to send in SF. Here is Task Force Normandy, a group of eight apaches guided by MH-53 pave low SAR choppers (absolute behemoths) into Iraqi territory as the time given by the UN resolution elapsed. Heavy lift helicopters slipping through air defence systems to guide apaches which in turn punched holes for the fast jets to operate, hahahahahahahahaha!!! Cruise missiles werenât even trusted to do the job. The mission took place 3 hours before the first jet was scheduled to arrive. How stupid do you feel now? Hereâs those things you hate that tell the story as it is, not as your shitty brain wants us to believe.
Just to be clear, the Pave Lows beat an early warning system hopelessly as well as defeat manpads in 91, what canât an apache do now?!!!
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/desert-storms-opening-shots-came-from-this-daring-helic-1753466057
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhpgCaPoBaE
Oh men, fighters and cruise missiles; get your facts straight, not come spew your talent and hope to impress people. When you are corrected, take it like a man not this period haemorraging girl that is posting shit here to be relevant. I wont even bother answering the rest when you have no idea the hubbub task force normandy caused. Your stupidity has been highlighted, dont bother replying. Your not worth the shit you possess