By the way, I’ve never disagreed with you about a post tribulation rapture, which will happen when Christ descends on Mount Olives to establish the millennial kingdom on earth. Because there are TWO raptures, TWO resurrections and TWO times when Christ comes for His people.
I’ve always known the church to be the bride of Christ , and by church I mean the body of believers …
Ephesians 5:22-33
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Yes sir. Those are martyrs who will be killed by the antichrist. They include the 144,000 Jews, non-serious Christians and in general, non-believers of today who will accept Christ during the tribulation.
Even Cain was a type of the church. He attended church, He prayed, He knew God, He offered a sacrifice, but only Abel truly walked with God.
- Ahem …
- Please read this text and interpret verse 32 in the simplest way possible.
Ephesians 5:22-33
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
I understand there are people who will receive Christ during the tribulation , I read the entire book of revelation because it has the power to bless the reader … a rational mind will laugh at this statement
Rev 1:3
God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near.
But story ya “non-serious” believers I did not come across… The message to one of the angels says we need to be either hot or cold , maybe that’s what you are dragging to the issue of the second coming.
That’s NEVER been stated in the text.
Do you admit that there has NEVER been a warning to the CHURCH about being left behind?
And there are TWO ressurections… the FIRST ressurection is when CHRIST comes as indicated and stated in Revelation 20:4-6
There is no ressurection before that… OTHERWISE it would not be the FIRST ressurection.
Rev 20 is as EXPLICIT as the text can get…
Also, Hebrews 11 is EXPLICIT that God’s plan is that we are all perfected TOGETHER.
@messiahette let me add more scriptures into the MIX.
- Daniel 12:13
the end of the 1,335 days.
13 As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
My question, per the text, when will Daniel ressurect?
- Luke 21:20-24
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
This text places the fulfilment of the time of Gentiles AFTER the great distress.
This is about CHRIST.
It can’t be ISRAEL because of the redemptive aspects of “bearing our punishments” etc
Where do you get that from the TEXT?
And do you suggest that some people will miss the wedding supper of the Lamb but still have a place in Salvation?
Read all parables of Christ. It’s EXPLICIT that everyone who misses the Feast of Jacob/ The Wedding of the Lamb etc… are all thrown into the fire of hell.
ACCORDING to CHRIST, it wedding supper or hell.
But you contradict MULTIPLE of Christ’s assertions when you suggest men will miss the feast of the Lamb and still be saved
Rev 20 comes after Revelation 19, which describes the wedding supper of the Lamb. Those who resurrect in chapter 20 will not enjoy this banquet. Do you see how the post-trib view lacks internal consistency?
Who resurrects in Rev 20?
- All tribulation martyrs
- All non-believers (this is the second resurrection. I know, we cannot seem to agree on the definition between “first” and “second” resurrection)
Please refer to the parable of the 10 virgins; five of them were wise and five were foolish. All ten were virgins which is a symbol of purity. They all went to church, they were Christians, they knew the Bible. Why did they miss it? Jesus is saying that some church goers will be locked out of the banquet. Clearly there are two groups of believers. What happened next? The Bridegroom came (rapture) and went in to feast with the 5 WISE virgins while the 5 FOOLISH virgins were locked out of the wedding supper and left to experience the tribulation.
Notice that Jesus gives this parable in Matthew 25, hot off the heels of Matthew 24!
Read these verses very keenly!!
Matthew 25:1 At that time the kingdom of heaven will be liketen virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’
13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
So the chapters are placed in Chronological order?
Is that your position?
But the events within a chapter aren’t in chronological order?
I mean Mathew 24, Luke 21, Mark 17 all put the ‘one will be taken, one will be left’ AFTER the mention of the second coming.
Yet you hold that chapters are in chronological order, but events in chapters aren’t?
You are the one without consistency my brother…
And it’s not that we can’t agree on the meaning of FIRTST… it’s that you are saying when the bible says first it actually means second.
What do you think of Daniel 12:13… when does Daniel ressurect per the text?
M
Mathew 25:12
But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.
This phrase is used by Christ many times and its always in reference to eternal damnation.
The tribulation implies second chance to recover.
Everytime people are locked out of Christ’s supper, they are thrown into Eternal damnation.
The words I don’t know you… is ALWAYS in reference to eternal damnation.
Why do you extrapolate a meaning contradicting every other previous use in this passage?
Just to continue the discussion. One thing you MUST strive to do is to be consistent in your interpretation. Because false Doctrine can’t be supported by scripture, you have to apply different lenses to different texts to support it.
Example:
To suggest 1Thessalonians 4:16 is different from Mathew 24:29-31 because one mentions angels and the other doesn’t is acceptable… but only if the standard is consistent.
If these two are different events because one doesn’t mention that angels gather the saints, then we have to be consistent.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 MUST be an event different from the first two because it doesn’t mention CHRIST nor the SHOUT nor Angels gathering.
If at all you use one standard for one part of the Scriptures and another for another text, then your interpretation isn’t informed by the text, but by doctrine.
And the text should interpret doctrine, not the other around.
We have gone really deep into the scriptures, but one question I keep asking myself is why are you people @Mzichi @Joka Jomino so keen about being in the tribulation?
Hell is literally about to be emptied out here on earth. The 200,000,000 army of demons located in Persia let loose and worse.
You should be excited that God has prepared for us a way of escape! We’re about to leave this miserable, evil, nasty world and all you two can come up with is justification for staying behind?! Wake up Bride!
Every believer who wakes up in the first resurrection will go before the throne of God in Rev 4 in order to receive their reward which is Eternal Life plus crowns and jewels etc depending on the work they did for God’s kingdom.
Whereas partakers of the second resurrection will face a Great White Throne Judgment (no mercy!)
Revelation 4:2-6.
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emeraldencircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
I would like you to contrast the throne in Rev 4:2-6 with this one.
Revelation 20:11. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
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This was my question:
- Daniel 12:13
the end of the 1,335 days.
13 As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.
My question, per the text, when will Daniel ressurect?
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And EVERYONE will stand before the white throne of judgement…
The question was whether it was scriptural or not. I choose to believe what the text says, and not take comfort in anything that’s unsupported by the text